Research & Development (RnD) [Working Title]RnD is a game where players take the role of god-like creatures who spend their lives creating, testing and destroying universes, using unique creatures with combined traits to battle under grueling test conditions.
Main MechanicsRnD's different playstyle includes several features:
- Creature Halves: Single creature cards are not single creatures, but half. Combine left-halves with right-halves to create a whole creature, or risk putting a cripped half-creature into battle.
- Level Up: Once each turn, you may put one card from your hand to the level up zone and turn it sideways. When you have 5 in the level up area, you may take a card with a level up effect and put it on top of those 5 cards. That effect is now available permanently (unless otherwise stated). There's a maximum of 3 levels, and after advancing a level you create a new stack of 5 below it.
- Deck as Life Points: When damage hits the player's life points, it discards that amount of cards instead.
Full rules here: Download Rulebook v.0 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwbOXtYqyC31NnU5R05TeGRpdDQ)
File also attached to this post.
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As far as Halves being combined, you should totally look into the Synchro/Xyz Cards of Yu-Gi-Oh.
You could also look into grading up games such as Cardfight!! Vanguard & Pokemon.
I'm trying to avoid grade-ups. I played Pokemon a lot and know how Vanguard is played. An issue there is that if I end up with higher grade cards in my hand, it's a dead hand.
FIRST POST REVISED.
Will the game have instant-type cards? If so, when you gain a level you could place an instant on top of the stack, and now you can play it every turn instead of just once. Does that make sense?
As far as card halves I think making a bunch of generic ones for each side and letting people literally build their own attack force would be cool (so you could do strong + strong, or strong + evasion, or evasion + utility, etc).
Cool ideas! Hope to see it go far
Quote from: Cyrus on May 26, 2012, 04:38:43 AM
Will the game have instant-type cards? If so, when you gain a level you could place an instant on top of the stack, and now you can play it every turn instead of just once. Does that make sense?
As far as card halves I think making a bunch of generic ones for each side and letting people literally build their own attack force would be cool (so you could do strong + strong, or strong + evasion, or evasion + utility, etc).
Cool ideas! Hope to see it go far
That actually sounds like an awesome idea, kind of like how you craft your experience points into Characters in Strategy games (like various MMOs)
Quote from: 3XXXDDD on May 26, 2012, 04:41:50 AM
Quote from: Cyrus on May 26, 2012, 04:38:43 AM
Will the game have instant-type cards? If so, when you gain a level you could place an instant on top of the stack, and now you can play it every turn instead of just once. Does that make sense?
As far as card halves I think making a bunch of generic ones for each side and letting people literally build their own attack force would be cool (so you could do strong + strong, or strong + evasion, or evasion + utility, etc).
Cool ideas! Hope to see it go far
That actually sounds like an awesome idea, kind of like how you craft your experience points into Characters in Strategy games (like various MMOs)
Alright, I'll address that one by one. Really excited about the feedback btw :D
Instant-type cards as level up powerupsI wanted to make a new type of card called Philosophy. To fit the theme, Philosophy is basically one of the gods, and since they oversee the test conditions of the battle, they would decide extra effects that happen in battle. A card will have 3 effects, each will trigger according to which level pile they put this card on. You're not allowed multiple copies of this card.
However, adding another type of card makes the game harder to balance. These cards will be outside the deck though, but that still means you cannot use instant effects as level up powerups. If I do use instants, I have to balance them so that it won't be overpowering when it can be used every turn.
Any suggestions on this? Keep the new Philosophy cards or just use instant effects as the powerups.
making a bunch of generic ones for each side and letting people literally build their own attack force would be coolSo if I'm correct, you're suggestion the cards just be illustrations, but players decide their stats and abilities? That is a possibility, but I'd like to avoid tokens and such. The game already plans to use dice, and that's complicated enough. Though if you're worried about how interesting the cards will be, I'd like your suggestions on that.
The cards have an element, health, attack, defense and an ability. Stats may be as low as 0, and a creature may not have an ability. Since there are no restrictions to combine cards, you're free to create a tank (hi-atk, hi-def, but no abilities), or mix abilities that let you be an attacker that heals, an attacker that drains health, an attacker that sacrifices itself to save other cards, etc. Would that be interesting enough?
Since creature halves have elements, you don't end up with just a fire creature, but perhaps a fire-water, fire-light, but also fire-fire. There has to be a strategic element to choosing what element goes with who at what time. A simple solution is to have abilities or effects that rewards certain combinations, but maybe a card type acts sort of like equipment, a skill you teach a creature. Example: the Fireball skill is equipped to a fire-water creature, and only does standard damage, but when equipped to a fire-fire creature, you get a chance to burn the opponent.
EvasionI see a new stat being mentioned. The current combat mechanic is as follows:
Creatures have an attack & defense stat.
In the battlefield, attackers are upright and defenders turned upside down.
When it's your turn, you choose the target for each of your attackers, either attackers of the opponent or the player. You cannot attack your opponent's defenders directly.
When you attack attackers, it's your attack vs. their defense.
When you attack the player, it's your attack vs. the defender's defense.
How these stats damage, I'm thinking of borrowing the die roll mechanic of Summoner Wars.
If the attack stat of a creature is 2, he rolls 2 dice when he attacks.
Only rolls of 3 or higher is a hit, less is a miss. Defender also rolls to see how much damage he's blocked (so a creature with a defense of 5 will not shut down the attackers).
With evasion, it could be another stat in that it decides the minimal roll value to count a hit.
Questions:
- More stats = more work to do. Will it be too much work to balance?
- The same evasion value for attack AND defense or separate? Cause separate means double the balancing work
I think this is a really interesting idea... The mixing and matching 2 halves sounds really interesting. I can see how it would make the player feel kind of like a mad scientist =P
The instant type cards I think are a good idea. Maybe not as level up mechanics though. I think a good way to implement them would be like the Gods messing with the whole game. That is, maybe cards that would release a noxious gas throughout the entire battlefield or maybe a rogue creature or something. I think they should be cards that mess up both players instead of just one. This could add strategy to it because maybe your opponent has more stuff than you so it would hurt them more or maybe you are willing to sacrifice your one beefy guy to kill your opponents beefy guy.
I don't know how I feel about the evasion stat... I think it would add unnecessary complications to the game, especially with the current combat system (which I like).
The combat system you mentioned (rolling 2 dice for a creature with 2 attack, etc.) really interests me... It reminds me a lot of Risk to be honest. I'm not sure if it adds a little bit too much luck though (not having played the game I can't tell). A good die roll could change the entire game around for the losing player or a bad roll could punt the game for a winning player. That's how it seems to me at least but you probably have a better idea of whether luck is too much of a factor or not.
Just my thoughts. Hope I helped =D
Quote from: Drackthar on May 27, 2012, 12:47:14 PM
I think this is a really interesting idea... The mixing and matching 2 halves sounds really interesting. I can see how it would make the player feel kind of like a mad scientist =P
The instant type cards I think are a good idea. Maybe not as level up mechanics though. I think a good way to implement them would be like the Gods messing with the whole game. That is, maybe cards that would release a noxious gas throughout the entire battlefield or maybe a rogue creature or something. I think they should be cards that mess up both players instead of just one. This could add strategy to it because maybe your opponent has more stuff than you so it would hurt them more or maybe you are willing to sacrifice your one beefy guy to kill your opponents beefy guy.
I don't know how I feel about the evasion stat... I think it would add unnecessary complications to the game, especially with the current combat system (which I like).
The combat system you mentioned (rolling 2 dice for a creature with 2 attack, etc.) really interests me... It reminds me a lot of Risk to be honest. I'm not sure if it adds a little bit too much luck though (not having played the game I can't tell). A good die roll could change the entire game around for the losing player or a bad roll could punt the game for a winning player. That's how it seems to me at least but you probably have a better idea of whether luck is too much of a factor or not.
Just my thoughts. Hope I helped =D
First of all I need to fix a "typo". It's gonna be called Accuracy, not Evasion, since I decided to apply it to defense die rolls as well. Whether or not I'll include Accuracy depends on the testing, but IF I include it, it opens up this possibility: I can make inaccurate berserkers or very reliable but weak attackers. Most have an accuracy of 3, the rest ranging from 2-4 with a few inaccurate/accurate exceptions (maybe through abilities)
As for too much luck, I have to test that and change the average accuracy of creatures. An accuracy of 3 means you'll only miss 30% of the time, though the opponent still rolls for defense. Still, only testing will tell. I chose 3 cause it's been done before by Summoner Wars, and I chose this combat system as a bit of luck adds excitement.
As for the cards messing up both battlefields, that was my original idea. Originally, before each game, players choose some effects that will be applied throughout the game. I scrapped that, but then with this new level up mechanic, I forgot I could've reused this. Thanks for reminding me.
Gives risk (and I always love pros & cons) in choosing which powerup to use, since both players can use it, especially dangerous if both players use the same strategy. Whether or not to have unique cards is another matter. Sacrificing big guys to kill the other big guy is a nice example :D
EDIT: What about best of both worlds? Some overpowered level up powerups affect both players. E.g. poisoning everyone in play. Lesser powered powerups just affect the player. E.g. a small defense increase
I like your edit. That seems like a good way to balance it. When I thought of it I had hunger games in mind (I only watched the movie) I don't know if you saw it but what I had in mind was when they released the mutts or when they threw fireballs at the players. Stuff like that would be cool...
I'm not sure if it's what you're aiming for, but I had some ideas for names and themes.
Fusing creatures together made me think of Alchemy. Those crazy alchemists tried mixing stuff together to create an elixir to grant eternal life, turning cheap metals into gold, and creating an artifical human called a homonculus.
More relevantly, in fiction they also tried combining different animals to try and create hybrids called chimaeras. If you're interested, I recommend looking into the anime Fullmetal Alchemist. Lot's of creepy stuff in there.
Also, I noticed someone making a game on BoardGameGeek that might interest you. It's about dinosaur cyborgs fighting each other and you can graft lasers and rockets onto them.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/802421/biomechanic-dino-battles-the-ccg-looking-for-pla
Big difference between the Dino thing you showed me is exactly the sort of thing I was going for to make it super unique. They still use single creatures and then add enhancements, not half creatures that'll not be very effective when played alone. That DOES look like an awesome game though :D Gonna download their rulebook.
For names and themes, I still don't know about names, but as for themes, I'm trying to avoid that story. Yes I'm familiar with Fullmetal Alchemist, watched Brotherhood start to finish, it was crazy good, but that's exactly the issue. I'm not making an FMA game, I'm making my own original one, hence I want an original story, and I don't think god-like scientist creatures who experiment with universes as easy as they experiment with lab rats and chemicals isn't an overused concept.
The name is still a working title, though I picked Research & Development cause it was different, better than Hybrid CCG or Quantum Fusion or whatever. Also, it abbreviated nicely, R&D, easy to remember.
Thanks for the comment, especially the Dino thing XD Will look into it
Question: Persistent vs. Temporary Damage
There are pros and cons for each. I prefer temporary damage myself, but what do you guys think?
A refresher on the combat mechanic:
Attack & defense values = the amount of dice you roll when you attack / defend, while accuracy = the minimal amount of die result to count a successful attack / defend.
The battlefield fits 4 whole creatures (8 cards), any amount can be assigned either in attack / defend mode.
When you attack, you have two choices: Attack the opponent's deck or attack the opponent's creatures who are in attack mode.
If you attack the deck directly, your attack is defended by the opponent's creatures in defend mode.
If you attack the creatures, your attack is defended by the creatures in attack mode.
Damaging the deck means discarding = damage.
Why I want temporary damage
I don't have to nerf the damage & boost the health and no need to track damage. Starting with zero damage each time gives a level playing field, leaving a lot to skill instead of ganging up & wearing down the opponent. Plus, there's plenty of permanent damage to your deck.
BUT, I don't know how it'll deal with poison and deteriorate.
Deteriorate
A key element in this game is fusing creature halves. You COULD play half creatures, but there must be a consequence so players have initiative to fuse. My idea was deteriorate, in which when only half a creature is played, it's unstable, like literally placing only half a creature to battle.
Originally, deteriorate works like poison, 1 damage at the start of each turn. But with temporary damage, poison doesn't work. Ideas?
Nerf attack? defense? Nerf health? accuracy?
Make them die instantly in the next turn? (Is it too harsh?)
Poison
No consistent damage, but I don't want poison to heal each turn. Ideas?
Nerf more stats? Defense is interesting to nerf, and maybe burn nerfs attack?
A consistent damage, but doesn't stack (e.g. creature always has 1 less health, as if you nerfed health)
Accuracy
Okay this is more to aesthetics. Since accuracy = minimal roll required to count as a hit, that would mean a higher accuracy = a lower chance of hitting. Any alternative names?
A refresher you ask? An accuracy of 3 means:
If you roll a die for attacking, results of 3, 4, 5 or 6 count as a hit. 1, 2 is a miss.
Though there is still the option of not having accuracy at all
OLD EDIT, skip reading if you want:
But even without different accuracy values...
The combat system calls for rolling dice. BUT, say that a creature of attack 3 vs. defense 3. That means a 30% chance to miss is made even greater with the 60% chance you hit, but get defended against. 18% success rate? Is my math right?
Should I just remove the dice combat mechanic altogether?
Should I remove defense altogether?
But if I do, I have to re-do the entire combat mechanic TT__TT
Solutions?
SUPER EDIT!!
NEW COMBAT SYSTEM that solves the other problems. Remove defense entirely? Defenders defend with their health instead.
EDIT AGAIN: Though that means, damage is not permanent? Aww geez...
You could have deteriorate be cumulative. So turn one they take 1 damage and turn 2 they take 2 damage etc.
It not only works to slowly kill the creature but also to slowly weaken the creature to the opponents attacks. So maybe a tough half creature would be put out and slowly whittled down to a point where a weaker creature (although a full one) could easily dispatch of the tougher one.
Poison could work as a poison on a certain stat ie one poison could weaken attack while another weakens health, another accuracy, etc.
Just my ideas ;)
First post has been updated.
With a version zero Rulebook, I'd some some feedback. Some of the finer details such as status ailments haven't been covered, but that's not too big of an issue now.
To address my previous question:
Damage is still temporary, and the health stat has been removed.
When you attack, you roll dice = Attack stat. Results of 3 or more are a hit (i.e. an Attack of 2 = potential damage of 0-2)
When you defend, you don't roll, it's absolute.
You can gang up against one creature to bypass their possibly high defense, and instead of attacking one-by-one, the Attack of all participating attackers are combined.
The rest is pretty developed.
Please check out the Research & Development Rulebook (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwbOXtYqyC31NnU5R05TeGRpdDQ) and give me feedback. Thank you.
Can't make any promises, but feedback has been so helpful, than when I'm in the process of making a test deck, I may let anyone who helps me here design their own creature (as per guidelines of course, it can't be overpowered obviously)
Just had a look through your rulebook and wanted to give some feedback.
The backstory and preparations for the game all seem very clear and easy to understand, but the section on determining player turn order seems weird and could be more concise.
You have a die roll determine whether player A or B starts first but you still need to determine which player is A and which is B. Maybe just have both players roll and higher roll can choose to start or go second?
For drawing and redrawing cards at the start, if creatures are super important to have in your opening hand, how about a rule that if you have a starting hand with no creatures, you can reveal it to your opponent and then draw a completely new hand?
I'm a fan of the system where the deck is effectively your life points. I think it's good that you are using the discarded cards for something, but I'm a bit worried that your system seems to require maintaining the order of cards in the discard zone, which could cause hiccups in games.
Other Random Ideas
Will it be possible to get cards back from the discard pile? Milling as a win condition is fine but it can suck when your favourite card gets milled and you never have the chance to play it.
Maybe you could design the template of creature cards as actual left and right cards, or else make it so the cards actually combine visually when played together like that really big monster in a Magic joke set that has two halves.
I'm not sure about detieriorate as a rule. It seems to say to players "fuse these creatures so that they don't suck" when it might be better to say "fuse these creatures because then they become super awesome". Basically just rewarding players for fusing rather than punishing them for not fusing.
Alright I'll check the turn order out, though if its a matter of conciseness I'll do it after I test the game.
The die roll thing is noted, I'll take care of it too.
As for the redrawing, the mechanic I had was you could re-draw as much as you liked without showing it to the opponent, but each time your starting hand size is -1. Obviously, you can't re-draw when you're left with 1 card. I'll consider your idea.
I don't get how I have to maintain the order of cards in the discard zone however, can you explain?
Yes, "healing" your deck is an option. Perhaps after testing, even seeking cards out of the discard, making discarding an even better option, though this one is probably limited.
The template is on the way, and yes there are right and left half cards, so one image is on the right, another to the left. Having it combine visually is a big part of the game.
Punishing them for not fusing may seem like that in the rulebook, but there are ways where playing a half creature that only lives one turn is a good thing (e.g. A creature Trait that says when it's Unstable, it gets a boost, or even act as a kamikaze creature). I did find a hiccup, I wanted players to have a chance to fuse a lone half on the next turn, but the current system kills it off beforehand.
It's gonna become:
"You can put down a half creature on a turn, but if on the next turn you STILL don't fuse it, it dies."
EDIT:
What if instead of the rule of "Maximum of 30 creatures in the 50 card deck", I have a rule "Minimum of 10 Level 0 cards in the 50 card deck"? So that you won't redraw forever if you only have 1 Level 0 card in your entire deck?
I did the math, an obligatory 10 level 0 creatures, 50 card deck, 5 card starting hand? That's nearly 70% chance to get at least one playable creature. If I reduce that to 5 creatures, that's a 40% chance.
Quote from: nickyinprogress on May 30, 2012, 03:16:48 AMI don't get how I have to maintain the order of cards in the discard zone however, can you explain?
I was just thinking that because the cards you put on your Favor Altar must come from the top of your discard pile, it means that players might have to be careful not to change the order if/when they want to check a discard pile, because it could change which cards are on top, and therefore which cards are put onto the Favor Altar.
Now that I think about it a bit more, you wouldn't want any of your really important cards to end up on the Favor Altar because it seems like removing them from the game.
Also, another small thought about milling as a victory condition - if the game ends immediately when a player's last card is milled, then that last card is effectively blank because you will never have a chance to play it.
Now, this might not be a problem for you, but if you think it is a problem, you could solve it by having a player lose at the end of the turn their deck is milled, or alternatively a player could lose when they fail to draw a card because their deck is empty.
Hmmm... I have no solution for that. Any ideas? The only must is paying Favor from the discard, so that the discard pile has better use and you don't lose your deck any faster than it's going to be.
Some possible solutions I thought up:
1. Reduce the creature's levels. Instead of Level 0, 1, 2, 3, just have 1,2,3 and you start at Level 1. This way, you only waste 10 cards over your entire deck at maximum in the Favor Altar.
2. Have Intervention/Traits that let you trade cards in the Favor Altar with a card from your hand/deck
As for the last card being blank, I totally agree. The win condition becomes: "When your opponent has no more cards in his deck at the start of your setup phase." When you deck out during the opponent's Combat Phase (most likely so), he ends his turn and switches to your own turn. When you finish your turn and switch back to the opponent, THEN you lose.
Any issues with this one?
EDIT:
Pay favor like you normally do, but instead of playing cards from the discard, you draw 1 from the discard, then play 1 from your hand to the Favor Altar.
Template finished!!
And it's also a usable card!
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3084/rdtemplate2012.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/rdtemplate2012.jpg/)(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/755/cardtemplate.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/cardtemplate.jpg/)
Need a level 0 creature that can get 2 damage to your opponent's deck on the first turn? Firstborn's your man! Though he quickly becomes useless after that. A really REALLY early game card. Note that a damage of 2 is very uncommon for a level 0 card.
Comments?
On anything really, I'm starting to make a test deck list. Explanation is up there.
First, small comment on the halves thing; doesn't it seem even more restictive to deckbuilding if you need a left and right half to go into decks? Otherwise, I kinda like the idea; very unique-feeling game, where everything is really a combo.
Wow, you're right now that I think about it. The problem is not the halves, but the resource system. An effective starting hand needs at least 1 level 0 left half and 1 level 0 right half. With a 50 card deck, say that 30 are creatures, equally divided that's 15 left & 15 right halves. Of the 15, an equal divide means 5 level 0 left & right halves. Bad.
Resource system overhaul:
Sacrifice a card from hand once per turn to the Favor Pile. You tap them like lands in MTG, but then you can take 5 cards in that to make a Methodology Pile, and place Intervention as Methodology as if you're spending 5 Favor to get a constant powerup.
This will work better because you won't have dead cards in your hand just because your level isn't high enough (which it won't at the early game). Worst case scenario, you get costly cards, but playable as long as you have enough Favor to tap.
If the argument is "But what if I don't have enough resources!"
That just falls on the player's resource management.
Quote from: nickyinprogress on May 30, 2012, 03:16:48 AM
The template is on the way, and yes there are right and left half cards, so one image is on the right, another to the left. Having it combine visually is a big part of the game.
On combining cards visually, I was thinking that you could also design the template so that not just the art, but also the stats on each card line up with each other in a way that makes them easier to use. I'm not sure yet what your plans are for combining stats so I can't suggest anything further.
The example card gives me the feeling that the style of this game is going to be cute, quirky and maybe a bit creepy - is my feeling close to what you're going for?
Also, does 0 Defense mean that Firstborn will die from the next damage it takes? In that case, would 1 Defense mean that it would take 2 damage to kill it?
I was struggling with this, especially wanted the name to join up. Unfortunately, I'd have to sacrifice the card art, cause it was losing focus. A shame, but as a designer, this was my design decision.
Combining stats is just through addition. Attack 2 creature + Attack 2 creature is Attack 4. Slowly, the process goes like: See the left half's Attack, see if any effects affect it as a half, put that amount of dice on top and do it on the other. Finally, check if any effects affect it as a whole and add dice to that. Say that it ends with 5 dice? Then roll 5 dice. For defense, no rolls though, so no dice, just count em'. Shouldn't be that hard.
The style will be cute quirky and creepy, yes. Creatures won't be just the typical ones, I'll go insane and make ice cream people, cacti on fire, chinese take out noodle octopi, you get the picture.
The numbers were placeholders really, I really didn't think about what I put on it. Since defense is basically health, a defense of 0 means on the next turn he dies. There won't be a lot of defense 0 creatures, but there are some that even utilizes this disadvantage by being a cheap donk. Medium attack, zero cost, zero defense, can't be fused, almost like sending a bomb to be exploded then discarded.
I'm lovin' this feedback, if you have more do tell, I need to know people's concerns to fix this.
As I said, this was primarily for me making card designs & illustrations, BUT it'd be worth ten times more if it's playable, and a longshot but possible HUNDRED times better if I sell it.
I like the template, and I like the style.
I've liked this concept from the beginning and have been following it for a while now.
I'd like to playtest it as I think you have a solid concept. I already have too many projects I'm a part of so I'd likely just help in the critiquing and playtesting sense. That said I have a few concerns and thoughts to address before I would be willing to get involved further.
I'm not a fan of the theme. I don't want to play a demigod, and the altars thing seems a tad creepy to me. I thought it was going to be more of a Mad Scientist sort of thing (which I love the idea of) before I read the rule book. I'm not likely to play the demigod theme because I'm uncomfortable with it. I understand that may not be a common issue, I'm just being honest.
The dice thing seems very random, but a little like gameworkshop in a sense. Right now you hit on a 66% chance. That means if your opponents defense is 2 then you need to have an attack of 3 to really have a chance at defeating it, and even then it depends on how the dice fall. If they have a defense of 3 you need a 5 to have a good chance, etc. If your opponents defense is 4 (which I imagine will only be very powerful creatures) you will need a 6. The gap widens as values get higher. Attack/defense values will need to reflect that.
If I understand the rules correctly you will have to go through 7-15 turns before you can play your strongest cards? That seems messed up! I want to have smothered my opponent by turn 15! How long does this game typically take?
Do you have enough cards to make test decks with?
It's been a couple of weeks since your last post here, have you had a chance to make the test decks or do any playtesting?
Currently making a test deck (with simple cards and mechanics), but progress will definitely be slow on the count of other actual work to be done and the fact that I just spend 4 nights freezing camping up a mountain.
Because making CCGs are new to me, issues like this don't really come to mind. Never considered the speed of playing strong cards, though that has been fixed. Will tell about it later, right now I gotta sleep and thaw my feet XD
Awesomesauce. Love the idea and especially the template. I hear so many people whining about how cards look "just like" Magic on the Geek when someone is designing a new game. No one can dare make that complaint here. It looks really good. (And makes me really jealous. Wish I could come up with that.)
Like I said, I was in the mountains for half a week and I've done some thinking (in addition to all the other comments). A few changes:
1. I returned to the original story of Mad Scientists, in which two villains (or villain groups) have moved in next to each other. Obviously, each tries to kill the other.
2. More of an aesthetic change, the level-up powerups become parts of the villain's tower. Same mechanic really, use resources to play it permanently. Perhaps though, separate this into a separate deck.
3. Remove harsh penalty of playing half creatures, but adding rewards to fusing. Lots of effects will trigger at certain combinations
I was thinking way to complicatedly, which is why I barely have any cards for testing. Lemme fix that right now.
EDIT: I forgot to mention. Yes, progress will be slower than a snail's pace. Uber-busy, and I can't show what I already have cause my notes are really messy XD
I praise your reply to your critiques.
You resolved not only some of my issues with the game but those of some of the others.
It actually makes sense that some rewards would trigger with certain combos, since some creatures would be more suited for battle than others. I would also recommend having some with generic rewards for fusing. For firstborn above you could do something like 'this is effect is ignored when firstborn is fused with a level 1 or higher creature.' That's way too wordy but I think you get what I mean.
I was just thinking some more about combining cards visually. This is probably completely unrealistic to do without the support of a big company, but I think you could check out Redakai. http://redakai.co.uk/go/redakai/game (http://redakai.co.uk/go/redakai/game)
It's a game targetted at young children, but they have this cool system where the cards are transparent and you lay them on top of one another. For example, there are 3 different colours of attack cards, and you put an attack on top of the character to check if it beats the character's defense against that colour, and which zone it damages on the character.
Also, the cards are holographic so when you put an attack on top of a character it makes it look like the fireball or whatever is affecting the character.
Like I said, it's an unrealistic idea but it might be something interesting to think about.
Regarding the challenge faced in ensuring a reasonably playable starting hand. Perhaps consider an adjustment to the first turn card draw.
Instead of
"both players shuffle their decks thoroughly and draw 5 cards from the top. If a player is not satisfied with the initial hand, they may return their hand the deck, shuffle and draw a new hand with one less card than his original."
how about using instead
"both players shuffle their decks thoroughly and draw 5 cards from the top. Each player may then select and discard any number of cards, redrawing from the top of their deck afterwards until they have 5 cards again. They may only do this once."
This helps to ensure that each player has a decent starting hand. Players are immediately penalised for discarding and redrawing in this way as the win/loss condition is by decking out. Effectively a player is sacrificing "health" and some mid/late game cards in order to get a better starting position for themselves.
An odd side effect of this method would be that a player would be able to work toward their first level on their first hand. That is with the mechanics as they are written currently. I guess Nicky is 'inprogress' of changing how levels work, but if it's anything similar it creates an advantage to discarding at least one card.
I actually fixed those issues already, sorry I didn't find the time. Now I do :D
The new resource system:
As suggested, having only being able to bring out powerful cards late-game (as I've realized now) is bad. But to keep the idea of level-up powerups, here's the new system.
You have the option of putting a card from your hand to the resource pile. Cards have a play cost, and is paid through that resource. It's replenished every turn. Ergo, it's basically MTG's Lands system without colors and resource card types.
HOWEVER, you can permanently use a resource (i.e. it won't be replenished next turn) to build a building, the powerups. E.g. you have 5 resources, meaning each turn you can play cards with a combined cost of up to 5. But, if you build a "Sentry Tower. Build Cost: 3. +1 attack to one creature of your choice every turn", you'll get its benefits throughout the game but now only have 2 resources remaining (the 3 is placed under the Sentry Tower, basically out of play).
The new combat system:
1. Pick a target, attack with as many Attackers as you want.
2. Going one-by-one per Attacker (if it's a group attack), place dice on top of that card = Attack value.
3. Opponent removes dice from attackers = target's Defense value. If it's a group attack, opponent may choose whose to take
4. Attacker rolls remaining die one-by-one per Attacker, to check their individual rolls for Triggers. Apply effect of Trigger if any, then move on to next Attacker if any. ALL die rolls count as hits, not misses this time.
What is a Trigger?
Lots of abilities in combat involve Triggers. Let's say you roll 2 dice to attack, resulting in a 3 and 4. That should do 2 damage, but your ability says "Trigger 4. +2 attack". You have at least one 4 in your rolls, meaning that ability triggers, causing 4 damage instead.
Note that some Triggers are bad for you (e.g. misses), some may say "Trigger 4 OR 3", some even "Trigger 4 AND 3". Some may have several Triggers, e.g. a Flamethrower ability is "Trigger 4. +1 Attack. Trigger 3. Burn target", meaning the example roll will net an attack boost AND a burn.
There was a suggestion on rewarding combinations, like "no penalties when paired with a Level 1". I'd thought of that, such as giving creatures traits (Attacks with teeth, claws, tentacles, is flying, etc) and rewarding combinations through abilities (e.g. If paired with something with claws, +2 attack). This adds yet more mechanics to the game.
Using Triggers means I'll be using the already implemented dice rolling. Your strategies in combos comes down to this: You roll a 4, 5 and 6. Creature half A's ability is a Trigger 4, and its attached half B is a Trigger 3. That means you only get A's ability to trigger. BUT, if both halves are Trigger 4, that two abilities happen.
It's a choice between versatility and safety (e.g. If A's doesn't trigger, B's may trigger) and sheer force through luck (e.g. when you get lucky, both A's and B's will trigger at the same time).
I hope it's an adequate replacement for "rewards through certain combinations"
Possible rule on defending against group attacks:
Possibly to avoid shut down of a single target when defending, an additional rule of "remove 1 die from each attacker in group first, THEN remove remaining die for anyone you choose". E.g. A group of 3 has a total of 8 die, 2 die from creature A, 2 from creature B and 4 from C. The defender can remove 4 die, but instead of removing 4 from C, you must first remove 1 from A, 1 from B, 1 from C then the defender's choice
Note
Using the word 'Trigger' just screams 'Japanese CCG' for me XD Small issue though.
Oh and I'd like to remind everyone that it's no longer about gods, I'm returning to my first idea of mad scientists as it's been suggested anyway.
The Story
Ignore this part if you're only interested in the mechanics right now.
You are an evil villain who'd just bought a piece of real estate to build your secret lair & doomsday device. Turns out your neighbor across the road is also a villain trying to do the same thing. Goal of the game? Build your doomsday device before the other villain, ensuring this by destroying the opponent's resources to do so using your minions and inventions.
An apology
I must come off as a "all talk and no action" guy since I have nothing to show for but improving mechanics for weeks now. As I said, uber-busy, and I hope despite this you'll stay tuned for the playtesting (God knows when). Just... expect looooooooooooooong delays before that.
I like it. A lot of these new changes are going to be awesome!
So are the cards you play for a resource just going face down? You can play any card as a resource right? in the VS system you can play any card into your resource area from you hand. There is a distinct advantage to playing locations and plot twists into the resource area though, since you will be able to still use their effects. Not sure how that ties in, it just seemed appropriate to mention.
I'm not sure I understand how the hits and misses work in the new system. Anything 3 or higher is a hit right? I didn't understand what you meant when you wrote that 'all die rolls count as hits'
I like triggers, and I like the possibly for rewarding for certain traits. I understand it add more mechanics and your reluctance to do so. I don't imagine every card will have a trigger on it though will it? Rewarding traits or other types of combos just gives you more options for mechanics to use. It's not a bad thing to have in your toolkit if you decide you like it.
The first trigger you explained, 'Trigger 4. +2 attack' would make me think that if you rolled a 4 you would get to roll two more dice. If you intend for it to just do 2 more damage on a 4 I would recommend phrasing things differently like '+2 damage'.
Yes, any card can be resource, though there won't be any special cards that are worth more. There are however going to be buildings that may be "tapped" as resource (though not as resource to build other buildings).
Hits and misses are totally gone now. All results count as a hit unless otherwise stated. The use for die now are in the Triggers. In a battle where no monster has triggers though, it becomes awkward (you roll where the result changes nothing), which is why I'm considering a result of 1 (instead of 1 or 2) to be a total miss. MATH TIME! With an average of 2 total Attack on even the lowest level monster, you have a huge chance on at least 1 hit (chance to two 1s on both rolls is 2%)
With the new theme, I'm trying to avoid the elements (Fire, Water, etc). Was considering Mechanical, Biological and Alchemical (copying Monster Lab, a Wii game). There will be Flying, Ranged, Reach, etc like MTG, so that's another element that can be rewarded. What else though? So far, we reward:
1. Combining different Trigger values
2. (Maybe) Combining different elements (Mechanical, etc)
3. Combining Flying, Ranged, etc
4. (Small maybe) Combining extra traits like Tentacled, Clawed, etc
Finally, better wording is noted (That example was just quickly made)
I want to see combos in the attacks. Like a snearing effect that causes the next one to be a crit (twice damage) that leads to an attack on it, stuff like that. Great work.
I think that reward system for combining cards should be great!
You might incorporate the idea of instability with certain creatures. Like firstborn does not mesh well with alchemical creatures or something of that sort. You can also use the unstable element to prevent abuses in power like preventing you from combining a really high powered ranged card with a high powered flying card or something like that.
If you are going to include the dice rolls at all I think there should be an element of failure. I think failure on a 1 or 2 is reasonable (66%), failure on a 1 makes your success very probable (85% chance). Having dice when your creatures have no triggers and no chance of missing seems silly, so If there will be no element of failure you shouldn't need to roll either.
Seems like you have a full toolkit and a handle on the mechanics. Sounds like it's time to make some rough prototypes.
Quote from: yudencow on June 24, 2012, 02:12:58 PM
I want to see combos in the attacks. Like a snearing effect that causes the next one to be a crit (twice damage) that leads to an attack on it, stuff like that. Great work.
Don't know what snearing is but I understand the crit thing.
In combat you place dice on the creature, and after combat all dice are removed. There are effects that let you keep dice, which feels like the crit you said. Another type of crit is from an Ability, such as...
Ability: Critical Strike [6] Inflict an extra 2 unblockable damage to the target.
As mentioned before, combine this with another Trigger 6 ability to get a super powerful critical hit, or a different number Trigger to get a better chance for at least one of em' triggering.Quote from: Dabem on June 24, 2012, 10:33:45 PM
You might incorporate the idea of instability with certain creatures. Like firstborn does not mesh well with alchemical creatures or something of that sort. You can also use the unstable element to prevent abuses in power like preventing you from combining a really high powered ranged card with a high powered flying card or something like that.
Instability will be tested later when I have lots of cards to decide between 'every creature has a different bad pairing' or a universal bad pairing (e.g. all Mechanical is bad with Biological, and so on)
As for a flying-ranged combination, here's something I never mentioned. The MTG-style evasion of flying creatures only apply when it's a flying-flying combination (two flying halves). Normally, only rolls of 2 or lower count a miss. Against flying-flying, you absolutely can't attack it unless you're flying, ranged, etc. Against flying-not flying (I call it 'Limited Flight'), rolls of 3 or lower count as a miss (unless you're flying, ranged, etc).
Since flying is often less powerful, choosing a flying-flying combination means sacrificing power for evasion.
Quote from: Dabem on June 24, 2012, 10:33:45 PM
If you are going to include the dice rolls at all I think there should be an element of failure. I think failure on a 1 or 2 is reasonable (66%), failure on a 1 makes your success very probable (85% chance). Having dice when your creatures have no triggers and no chance of missing seems silly, so If there will be no element of failure you shouldn't need to roll either.
Seems like you have a full toolkit and a handle on the mechanics. Sounds like it's time to make some rough prototypes.
Dice rolls noted, though a gut feeling tells me I either need to make it 84% instead of 66% or boost the average attack of creatures.
As for prototypes, doing it now with quick progress. Here's some abilities I've made:
Ability: Self-Destruct (2) You may discard [this] to inflict 5 damage to an opposing Structure or Base. Reduce this damage for every creature on the opposing field.
Low cost creature, useless in battle, but use this to get early hits on the Base (the deck) to cripple opponents early. Useless in late-game cause damage is reduced by creatures on the field. Ability: Booster Impact (X) Before [this] rolls for combat, you may spend up to 3 Power to add that many dice to [this].
Medium cost creature, mediocre stats but can be improved by spending even more Power. Gets its full potential when paired with a quick Power generating strategy. Ability: Momentum [3] You may keep 1 die for each [3] on [this] instead of removing it after combat.
Minor ability, but can still be mildly helpful. Note that with a trigger of 3, this will never activate against a creature with Limited Flight or other evasive creatures.Speaking of minor abilities, I also want to tell you all about how I decide the costs for creature cards. The formula is
Attack + Defense + Ability Value, simple as that. Meh abilities are 0, really good ones could be 2, and abilities that actually penalize you could be -2. Having flying, ranged, etc can also increase Ability Value.
Note that
(n) means spending Power = n to activate
[n] means activating only when there's a result of n on any dice on the combat roll
[this] means the name of that creature
Awesome. You'll have some test decks in no time, and that when the real fun begins.
Keep in mind to not get too attached to any element of the rules, some of them seem fine on paper but don't survive testing. I was told by a friend of mine to make the prototypes as quickly, cheaply, and crappily as possible so that you can focus on gameplay first and you don't get too attached to a certain iteration of the way the cards look, or the rules or any such thing.
I like your incorporation of flying and limited flight. What will ranged-other and ranged-ranged creatures do? I assume ranged creatures will be weaker?
A question on momentum you get an extra dice for the next attack right? Then at the end of each attack you remove all dice. So will you lose that die when you attack with that creature the next time? Is it supposed to be more permanent?
On the half card mechanic, perhaps you should have ha;f the stats on "right side" cards and half on "left side" that way you cna really make yoru own cards and avoid unnecessary math.
Meaning there's an Attack half and a Defense half right? I could try that out real quick, however I see an issue with this right away: One half's gonna be useless on its own in Defending, the other in Attacking.
A possibility:
The abilities keep it fresh.
You could choose between an Attack half with a Defensive ability or more Attack.
You could choose between a Defense half with an Attack ability or more Defense.
Yet more things to test I suppose. Thanks for the input :D
Or each half creature could have an attack and defense but you only look at the defense of the left half and the attack of the right half. So you could combine a 2/4 with a 4/1 to get a 4/4. That means you are sacrificing a bit of power to make a whole monster, but it's an overall better one.
This has another advantage, you don't have to tether yourself to making right halves and left halves, just halves. You can allow the players decide what should go on the right and what should be on the left. They should follow a certain pattern unless they're playing a strategy. It won't look nearly as cool visually as the card you designed.
It's just an idea. If you like it run with it.
Or you have to be smart and have an even blend of attack and defense cards in your deck so you dont get "Stat Screw" (Like MTG's Land Screw DM' mana screw or CFV's Grade Screw )
I'm finding this game REALLY interesting. If you need a playtester, I'm here to help you out. As long as it's ready to play first, so I hope you get on those cards sometime soon! Also, I, personally, think there should be a specified left and right halves, but each one has a value highlighted or something, and that highlighted value is the value that is used when combining creatures. For example, a creature that is supposed to be played as a half may have 5 attack and 2 defense, maybe a level 2 or 3 creature, and it's defense is highlighted. That would make it so that the defense is the value used. But, then again, what if a left and right half both have defense highlighted? It might make a defender creature, with a high defense and no attack. What do you think?
Specified right & half cards are a must, due to aesthetic reasons (and hey I'm a designer first, game-maker second. It has to look good as much as it plays good).
As for highlighted stats, I want total freedom to the player, though that doesn't mean the idea of using one half for defense and one for attack is a bad one. Again, that depends on testing, and guys I can't say how sorry I am but I can't do this very quickly. Thing is, it's a side project. I've got 3D to study and a game to code, so this one's on queue. I do have a quick card list for the first testing, just haven't done it yet.
It will be done though, just be patient guys :D
Actually, now that I think of it, only certain cards should have highlighted stats. But that would be only to balance certain cards, like my example.