Author Topic: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]  (Read 2299 times)

Dabem

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 01:58:15 PM »
An odd side effect of this method would be that a player would be able to work toward their first level on their first hand. That is with the mechanics as they are written currently. I guess Nicky is 'inprogress' of changing how levels work, but if it's anything similar it creates an advantage to discarding at least one card.

nickyinprogress

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 01:54:40 AM »
I actually fixed those issues already, sorry I didn't find the time. Now I do :D

The new resource system:
As suggested, having only being able to bring out powerful cards late-game (as I've realized now) is bad. But to keep the idea of level-up powerups, here's the new system.

You have the option of putting a card from your hand to the resource pile. Cards have a play cost, and is paid through that resource. It's replenished every turn. Ergo, it's basically MTG's Lands system without colors and resource card types.

HOWEVER, you can permanently use a resource (i.e. it won't be replenished next turn) to build a building, the powerups. E.g. you have 5 resources, meaning each turn you can play cards with a combined cost of up to 5. But, if you build a "Sentry Tower. Build Cost: 3. +1 attack to one creature of your choice every turn", you'll get its benefits throughout the game but now only have 2 resources remaining (the 3 is placed under the Sentry Tower, basically out of play).

The new combat system:
1. Pick a target, attack with as many Attackers as you want.
2. Going one-by-one per Attacker (if it's a group attack), place dice on top of that card = Attack value.
3. Opponent removes dice from attackers = target's Defense value. If it's a group attack, opponent may choose whose to take
4. Attacker rolls remaining die one-by-one per Attacker, to check their individual rolls for Triggers. Apply effect of Trigger if any, then move on to next Attacker if any. ALL die rolls count as hits, not misses this time.

What is a Trigger?
Lots of abilities in combat involve Triggers. Let's say you roll 2 dice to attack, resulting in a 3 and 4. That should do 2 damage, but your ability says "Trigger 4. +2 attack". You have at least one 4 in your rolls, meaning that ability triggers, causing 4 damage instead.

Note that some Triggers are bad for you (e.g. misses), some may say "Trigger 4 OR 3", some even "Trigger 4 AND 3". Some may have several Triggers, e.g. a Flamethrower ability is "Trigger 4. +1 Attack. Trigger 3. Burn target", meaning the example roll will net an attack boost AND a burn.

There was a suggestion on rewarding combinations, like "no penalties when paired with a Level 1". I'd thought of that, such as giving creatures traits (Attacks with teeth, claws, tentacles, is flying, etc) and rewarding combinations through abilities (e.g. If paired with something with claws, +2 attack). This adds yet more mechanics to the game.

Using Triggers means I'll be using the already implemented dice rolling. Your strategies in combos comes down to this: You roll a 4, 5 and 6. Creature half A's ability is a Trigger 4, and its attached half B is a Trigger 3. That means you only get A's ability to trigger. BUT, if both halves are Trigger 4, that two abilities happen.

It's a choice between versatility and safety (e.g. If A's doesn't trigger, B's may trigger) and sheer force through luck (e.g. when you get lucky, both A's and B's will trigger at the same time).

I hope it's an adequate replacement for "rewards through certain combinations"

Possible rule on defending against group attacks:
Possibly to avoid shut down of a single target when defending, an additional rule of "remove 1 die from each attacker in group first, THEN remove remaining die for anyone you choose". E.g. A group of 3 has a total of 8 die, 2 die from creature A, 2 from creature B and 4 from C. The defender can remove 4 die, but instead of removing 4 from C, you must first remove 1 from A, 1 from B, 1 from C then the defender's choice

Note
Using the word 'Trigger' just screams 'Japanese CCG' for me XD Small issue though.
Oh and I'd like to remind everyone that it's no longer about gods, I'm returning to my first idea of mad scientists as it's been suggested anyway.

The Story
Ignore this part if you're only interested in the mechanics right now.

You are an evil villain who'd just bought a piece of real estate to build your secret lair & doomsday device. Turns out your neighbor across the road is also a villain trying to do the same thing. Goal of the game? Build your doomsday device before the other villain, ensuring this by destroying the opponent's resources to do so using your minions and inventions.

An apology
I must come off as a "all talk and no action" guy since I have nothing to show for but improving mechanics for weeks now. As I said, uber-busy, and I hope despite this you'll stay tuned for the playtesting (God knows when). Just... expect looooooooooooooong delays before that.

Dabem

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2012, 03:31:32 AM »
I like it. A lot of these new changes are going to be awesome!

So are the cards you play for a resource just going face down? You can play any card as a resource right? in the VS system you can play any card into your resource area from you hand. There is a distinct advantage to playing locations and plot twists into the resource area though, since you will be able to still use their effects. Not sure how that ties in, it just seemed appropriate to mention.

I'm not sure I understand how the hits and misses work in the new system. Anything 3 or higher is a hit right? I didn't understand what you meant when you wrote that 'all die rolls count as hits'

I like triggers, and I like the possibly for rewarding for certain traits. I understand it add more mechanics and your reluctance to do so. I don't imagine every card will have a trigger on it though will it? Rewarding traits or other types of combos just gives you more options for mechanics to use. It's not a bad thing to have in your toolkit if you decide you like it.

The first trigger you explained, 'Trigger 4. +2 attack' would make me think that if you rolled a 4 you would get to roll two more dice. If you intend for it to just do 2 more damage on a 4 I would recommend phrasing things differently like '+2 damage'.

nickyinprogress

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2012, 04:06:03 AM »
Yes, any card can be resource, though there won't be any special cards that are worth more. There are however going to be buildings that may be "tapped" as resource (though not as resource to build other buildings).

Hits and misses are totally gone now. All results count as a hit unless otherwise stated. The use for die now are in the Triggers. In a battle where no monster has triggers though, it becomes awkward (you roll where the result changes nothing), which is why I'm considering a result of 1 (instead of 1 or 2) to be a total miss. MATH TIME! With an average of 2 total Attack on even the lowest level monster, you have a huge chance on at least 1 hit (chance to two 1s on both rolls is 2%)

With the new theme, I'm trying to avoid the elements (Fire, Water, etc). Was considering Mechanical, Biological and Alchemical (copying Monster Lab, a Wii game). There will be Flying, Ranged, Reach, etc like MTG, so that's another element that can be rewarded. What else though? So far, we reward:
1. Combining different Trigger values
2. (Maybe) Combining different elements (Mechanical, etc)
3. Combining Flying, Ranged, etc
4. (Small maybe) Combining extra traits like Tentacled, Clawed, etc

Finally, better wording is noted (That example was just quickly made)

yudencow

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 02:12:58 PM »
I want to see combos in the attacks. Like a snearing effect that causes the next one to be a crit (twice damage) that leads to an attack on it, stuff like that. Great work.

Dabem

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 10:33:45 PM »
I think that reward system for combining cards should be great!

You might incorporate the idea of instability with certain creatures. Like firstborn does not mesh well with alchemical creatures or something of that sort. You can also use the unstable element to prevent abuses in power like preventing you from combining a really high powered ranged card with a high powered flying card or something like that.

If you are going to include the dice rolls at all I think there should be an element of failure. I think failure on a 1 or 2 is reasonable (66%), failure on a 1 makes your success very probable (85% chance). Having dice when your creatures have no triggers and no chance of missing seems silly, so If there will be no element of failure you shouldn't need to roll either.

Seems like you have a full toolkit and a handle on the mechanics. Sounds like it's time to make some rough prototypes.

nickyinprogress

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 12:39:27 AM »
I want to see combos in the attacks. Like a snearing effect that causes the next one to be a crit (twice damage) that leads to an attack on it, stuff like that. Great work.
Don't know what snearing is but I understand the crit thing.
In combat you place dice on the creature, and after combat all dice are removed. There are effects that let you keep dice, which feels like the crit you said. Another type of crit is from an Ability, such as...

      Ability: Critical Strike
      [6] Inflict an extra 2 unblockable damage to the target.

      As mentioned before, combine this with another Trigger 6 ability to get a super powerful critical hit, or a different number Trigger to get a better chance for at least one of em' triggering.

You might incorporate the idea of instability with certain creatures. Like firstborn does not mesh well with alchemical creatures or something of that sort. You can also use the unstable element to prevent abuses in power like preventing you from combining a really high powered ranged card with a high powered flying card or something like that.

Instability will be tested later when I have lots of cards to decide between 'every creature has a different bad pairing' or a universal bad pairing (e.g. all Mechanical is bad with Biological, and so on)

As for a flying-ranged combination, here's something I never mentioned. The MTG-style evasion of flying creatures only apply when it's a flying-flying combination (two flying halves). Normally, only rolls of 2 or lower count a miss. Against flying-flying, you absolutely can't attack it unless you're flying, ranged, etc. Against flying-not flying (I call it 'Limited Flight'), rolls of 3 or lower count as a miss (unless you're flying, ranged, etc).
Since flying is often less powerful, choosing a flying-flying combination means sacrificing power for evasion.

If you are going to include the dice rolls at all I think there should be an element of failure. I think failure on a 1 or 2 is reasonable (66%), failure on a 1 makes your success very probable (85% chance). Having dice when your creatures have no triggers and no chance of missing seems silly, so If there will be no element of failure you shouldn't need to roll either.

Seems like you have a full toolkit and a handle on the mechanics. Sounds like it's time to make some rough prototypes.
Dice rolls noted, though a gut feeling tells me I either need to make it 84% instead of 66% or boost the average attack of creatures.

As for prototypes, doing it now with quick progress. Here's some abilities I've made:

      Ability: Self-Destruct
      (2) You may discard [this] to inflict 5 damage to an opposing Structure or Base. Reduce this damage for every creature on the opposing field.

      Low cost creature, useless in battle, but use this to get early hits on the Base (the deck) to cripple opponents early. Useless in late-game cause damage is reduced by creatures on the field.

      Ability: Booster Impact
      (X) Before [this] rolls for combat, you may spend up to 3 Power to add that many dice to [this].

      Medium cost creature, mediocre stats but can be improved by spending even more Power. Gets its full potential when paired with a quick Power generating strategy.

      Ability: Momentum
      [3] You may keep 1 die for each [3] on [this] instead of removing it after combat.

      Minor ability, but can still be mildly helpful. Note that with a trigger of 3, this will never activate against a creature with Limited Flight or other evasive creatures.

Speaking of minor abilities, I also want to tell you all about how I decide the costs for creature cards. The formula is Attack + Defense + Ability Value, simple as that. Meh abilities are 0, really good ones could be 2, and abilities that actually penalize you could be -2. Having flying, ranged, etc can also increase Ability Value.

Note that
(n) means spending Power = n to activate
[n] means activating only when there's a result of n on any dice on the combat roll
[this] means the name of that creature

Dabem

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 02:29:42 PM »
Awesome. You'll have some test decks in no time, and that when the real fun begins.

Keep in mind to not get too attached to any element of the rules, some of them seem fine on paper but don't survive testing. I was told by a friend of mine to make the prototypes as quickly, cheaply, and crappily as possible so that you can focus on gameplay first and you don't get too attached to a certain iteration of the way the cards look, or the rules or any such thing.

I like your incorporation of flying and limited flight. What will ranged-other and ranged-ranged creatures do? I assume ranged creatures will be weaker?

A question on momentum you get an extra dice for the next attack right? Then at the end of each attack you remove all dice. So will you lose that die when you attack with that creature the next time? Is it supposed to be more permanent?

Kosmosis|Omegan

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2012, 09:39:47 PM »
On the half card mechanic, perhaps you should have ha;f the stats on "right side" cards and half on "left side" that way you cna really make yoru own cards and avoid unnecessary math.

nickyinprogress

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2012, 11:13:59 PM »
Meaning there's an Attack half and a Defense half right? I could try that out real quick, however I see an issue with this right away: One half's gonna be useless on its own in Defending, the other in Attacking.

A possibility:
The abilities keep it fresh.
You could choose between an Attack half with a Defensive ability or more Attack.
You could choose between a Defense half with an Attack ability or more Defense.

Yet more things to test I suppose. Thanks for the input :D

Dabem

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2012, 11:42:01 PM »
Or each half creature could have an attack and defense but you only look at the defense of the left half and the attack of the right half. So you could combine a 2/4 with a 4/1 to get a 4/4. That means you are sacrificing a bit of power to make a whole monster, but it's an overall better one.

This has another advantage, you don't have to tether yourself to making right halves and left halves, just halves. You can allow the players decide what should go on the right and what should be on the left. They should follow a certain pattern unless they're playing a strategy. It won't look nearly as cool visually as the card you designed.

It's just an idea. If you like it run with it.

Kosmosis|Omegan

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2012, 11:30:48 AM »
Or you have to be smart and have an even blend of attack and defense cards in your deck so you dont get "Stat Screw" (Like MTG's Land Screw DM' mana screw or CFV's  Grade Screw )

mappel6

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2012, 01:17:01 PM »
I'm finding this game REALLY interesting. If you need a playtester, I'm here to help you out. As long as it's ready to play first, so I hope you get on those cards sometime soon! Also, I, personally, think there should be a specified left and right halves, but each one has a value highlighted or something, and that highlighted value is the value that is used when combining creatures. For example, a creature that is supposed to be played as a half may have 5 attack and 2 defense, maybe a level 2 or 3 creature, and it's defense is highlighted. That would make it so that the defense is the value used. But, then again, what if a left and right half both have defense highlighted? It might make a defender creature, with a high defense and no attack. What do you think?

nickyinprogress

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2012, 01:28:50 PM »
Specified right & half cards are a must, due to aesthetic reasons (and hey I'm a designer first, game-maker second. It has to look good as much as it plays good).

As for highlighted stats, I want total freedom to the player, though that doesn't mean the idea of using one half for defense and one for attack is a bad one. Again, that depends on testing, and guys I can't say how sorry I am but I can't do this very quickly. Thing is, it's a side project. I've got 3D to study and a game to code, so this one's on queue. I do have a quick card list for the first testing, just haven't done it yet.

It will be done though, just be patient guys :D

mappel6

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Re: Research & Development: CCG centered around fusion [Working Title]
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2012, 09:34:06 PM »
Actually, now that I think of it, only certain cards should have highlighted stats. But that would be only to balance certain cards, like my example.